In the Telling

Where Art Intersects

September 03, 2019 Liz Christensen / Desarae Lee, Britty Marie Season 1 Episode 12
In the Telling
Where Art Intersects
Show Notes Transcript

Guests: fine artist Desarae Lee and The Bemused Podcast host and Instagram makeup artist Britty Marie

Picasso said, “unless your painting goes wrong, it will be no good.” 

Nietsche said “We have art in order not to die from the truth.”  

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Speaker 1:

Contemporary surreal has gotten just like, it just means weird, which my work is that too. So I guess it fits. Um, I don't do a lot of landscapes. It's more figurative animals and very emotional. Like for me it's definitely a form of expressing myself. I think with the work that really does connect, cause not every piece really could, like some pieces are just for fun, right? But the ones that really do connect, I think I'm just expressing trauma combined with getting through trauma, finding light in the trauma, oftentimes finding humor in things that are really dark. I think just basically coping mechanisms for trauma or sometimes I am just drawing trauma. Like it's just my way of dealing and, and for me it's less getting it out as more of like, like I want somebody to see this, like being heard. Maybe

Speaker 2:

for me the voice you just heard belongs to fine artists. Deseret Lee describing her pen and ink illustrations. Join Desiree. Hi. Hi. My name is Desiree Lee and I am a frame artist and illustrator. I do drawings and print making and Brittney Marie, I am the artist known as Brittney Marie. Like it's funny cause I, I changed my, my name is Brittany Nielsen but I changed my name a little while ago to Brittney Marie. Some people know me as Brittany Nielsen, some people know me as birdie Marie and then some people think it's really stupid that I changed my name but that that is, you may call me anything in that world. Brittany, Brittany Britt stirs brittle bones. I don't care. Whatever. You can just call me whenever you want. And today's portraits of two artists and storytellers, trauma, anxiety, depression and autism. I'm your host Liz Christiansen and it's all in the telling.

Speaker 3:

Welcome to episode 12 where art intersect. I found Dezirae Lee's work at the 2019 Utah arts festival and was struck by the technique of her art as well as the contrast within her pieces and my experience of those pieces that I find that so surprising because when I look at your work, I don't feel impacted by trauma. I don't feel like trauma is what is my experience in viewing it. Does that make sense? Totally. So your, your work has, um, I receive it like there's a playfulness and an optimism and a beauty. And I don't know if that's

Speaker 2:

more my filter or if you think that in your putting it out there yeah.

Speaker 1:

To, I don't know, get above it. I think I, I hear everything from people so I hear that cause it is, there are many pieces that are fun and playful or many pieces that poke fun at dark things. Right? Yeah. Um, but then I also people who will come up and they see really dark things in it. And I usually like when somebody comes up and it's like, wow, this is really dark. I'm like, Oh, we're going to be best friends. Like I can tell I'm in fact, one of my really good friends I met that way. He just came up and looked around and he was like, man, this is really dark. And I was like, let's be like, let's be friends. And I don't think like, it doesn't necessarily mean if people don't see dark in my work. It doesn't mean that they haven't been through, I don't know how, swearing words that they haven't been through stuff. Um, but I think there's just a certain type of person, the way that I deal with things really connects and people who deal with trauma that same way kind of tend to see that in it. Like see really dark. Um, or I think for some people if the pain is really fresh then they'll see the dark and it more. Um, and there's definitely a difference in pieces too. Like I have pieces that are all light and fun and whimsical and like there's that side of it too. Yeah, that's, people say whimsical a lot. So there are, there's a difference in some pieces. Like some pieces are definitely darker and much more connected to my soul and some are fun and whimsical.

Speaker 3:

When I met Deseret briefly the summer, I knew I wanted to talk to her about her art and her book beginning pen and ink birdie Marie. However, I have known for years, Britney participates in a lot of different storytelling tracks. So I was kind of keeping her in my back pocket, trying to decide what of all the things we could talk about. I really wanted to discuss with her after I met Dezirae, I knew exactly which things I wanted to ask Brady and I knew based on how Britney engages in conversation and with people in the world around her that I was really going to enjoy our interview.

Speaker 2:

I started out as an actor probably when I was eight, probably younger. I don't know. My mom said I came out of the womb singing, so I assume that my NTI was a little attention grabber since I was very, very small. But I think I really like technically started with dance the way that most girls do. And then I got into theater and I've been doing theater since I was a little kid and then as I got older, I think the, I think the progression of it went uh, in college I've always liked writing, but it was mostly a way to pass time in church, quite frankly. Like really I would sit in church and I would write pages upon pages. It looked like I was free writing. You know when people just write mindlessly and they don't like bother punctuation and I would do that for three straight hours essentially in church and I would end up with 20 plus pages of just written thoughts, crappy pseudo philosophy. I would, I would probably call it because I don't know that any of it was any good. It would just be like, or if someone might say something during a sermon or a, you know, whatever. And I, I'm just like, Oh, that's interesting. And it would get me thinking about something. Usually it was just whatever I was pondering at the time because that's been my sort of curse through life is I can't stop thinking about things ever, ever. So like my brain never shuts off and I'm always just constantly pondering something or thinking about something. And so I would just sit with, with books and just these, Nope, I have, I mean I don't even know where they all are now honestly, which is the weird thing because there's got to be like hundreds of them. But as a process thing, not a product thing for you know, no one was ever gonna read those. Like that was my intention was that no one would ever see those except for me. But then I got into college and I had to take um, like a media social media writing course or something like the, I can't remember what it was, but as part of the criteria for the class, I had to make a blog. So that was the beginning of what some people know me for, which is diary of an anxious white Virgin, the blog that will live in infamy. How much do I regret doing it? Maybe just a little, not a lot of our girts maybe just a handful of regards about what aspects of it. I just don't get excited people who are listening because by the time this is published, the blog will probably be gone. Cause I actually went back recently and um, transferred all of those blog posts into like a Google doc. Okay. There's over 600 pages. Like that's it. And the blog only went for about a year and a half, I want to say. So a ton of writing. But as I was reading back through a lot of that stuff, it was just crazy to me like how much my opinions and views of things have changed over time. And there was a, there was no, I wouldn't say there's a ton, but there's a decent amount of material in there that I actually disagree with quite a bit now and I would not want people to associate how I felt back then about things, about how, uh, in, in relation to how I feel now about things, if that makes sense. But I think that's normal. I'm not mad at myself about that. I think that that's part of the growth process for anybody is you may start out with a certain set of beliefs, but as more information becomes available to you or life experience happens to you, you just changed the way you think about things. And so yeah, it's not like I'm spewing out some horrific, terrible ideology. It's just not, it just not reflective of how I feel today. So, so I'm going to get rid of it is the boy, it won't be there anymore. Are you feeling like 100% confident about that though? Because like the internet is one of those things where like once it's out there, like you don't have total control. No. In fact, that's part of the reason why I have a love hate relationship with all of this. And by all of this, as I gesture vaguely to the air is my podcast, my blog, um, anything that I've ever written, well podcast that I've been on that belonged to other people, I realize that to an extent there's no erasing it. And that both feels me with dread and horror. Well again, because there are times, well, I'll give you an example. So to tie it back, like I had my blog for awhile, right? The blog was sort of the catalyst for the podcast, so I know we'll touch on probably more of that later. But all that to say that I now have a podcast called the[inaudible] podcast and I was recording an episode just the other day with someone and we recorded for two hours. So it's a lot of material. Right. And at the end of it, by the time we were done recording, like th th there wasn't even like a week or a month in between. By the time we were done recording, I was like, I don't think I believe half the things that I said in there, they just came out of you because it's a process because you engaged with content with words. Because I speak through things to try and figure out whether what I actually think about them. Sure. And so that happens during the course of even recording a podcast episode is we'll be talking through things, me and whoever I have on and I'll say things like, well this is what I think yet, dah, dah, dah, dah. And then I'll say that and then they'll say something and I'll go, Oh, that's actually a really good point. I don't know if I believe what I just said. Yeah, I might be persuaded already. Yeah. Yeah. You are very self aware, I think, and evaluated a valuative self evaluative or reflective. How did that come about for you and how does that come out in your art or entertainment, if that word is more comfortable than artists? Entertainer? I don't know where it came from because I've always been this way. So some might argue that you are prepackaged. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years ago I was actually diagnosed as being on the spectrum on the autism spectrum and so I guess if I wanted I could just attribute it to that perhaps, but I don't know that that is typical of people on the spectrum. I have met a lot of people now since my own diagnosis, I've spent more time with people on the spectrum. I have met a lot that are incredibly introspective the way that I am, and then I've met some that just aren't at all. So I don't know that it's, it's a necessary facet of autism. Okay. To be, to be incredibly introspective. I mean to be analytical. Yes. I would say definitely that's a pretty common denominator. Yeah, a pretty, yeah. Pretty common facet of autism is being more about systems and being more analytical by nature. I don't know why. I've just always, I've just always been this way and, and how that, how that contributes to this other stuff. I don't know. I, I mean I thought, I thought about it and I just, I, okay. How about this? I think to my own detriment, I think that I am the kind of person who doesn't care as much as I should about how I'm presenting myself to the world in the sense that if I were smart, if I were socially wise, which again could harken back to the autism thing, if I were socially wise air quotes, I wouldn't, I would not be laying out my heart and my soul and my trauma out there in the world the way that I do because most people I know are fine to talk about those sorts of things with people who they know and who they trust. And usually it's in a private setting and that's it. I who on the other hand will go write a blog post and put it up on the internet or record a podcast and put it up on the internet or do some sort of makeup thing and put it up on the internet. And so I don't know why that sort of exhibitionist part of it is there other than to say, I must not have a very good sense or care for my social, what's the word? My social standing, perhaps it's not that I don't care because I do care, right? That perfectionist part comes out or you're, you're, you're wondering about how it's going to be received. Perse. Perfectionist. With myself, I'm my own worst critic. I'm competing with me kind of thing. I'm constantly fighting the, the voices and not, not the literal voices, but you know, the voices in my head that are telling me that I'm not good enough, that I'm not whatever. But in terms of how I come across to the world, I don't think I'd give it enough thought. Quite honestly. In some ways you're, you're the one Instagrammer who, who isn't like, okay, what's my brand and how do I effectively do this and how I don't really understand that. Quite honestly. Like I understand it in theory, I don't understand it in practice and it seems contrived. If I could be pretentious again, Bridie puts herself out on the internet through a variety of mediums, blog posts, podcasts, and makeup artists on Instagram. It's honest and vulnerable and personal and imperfect. And there's no erasing it. No taking it back. And those are all the reasons why I thought of her when I spoke with Deseret and her crosshatched pen and ink illustrations, Desiree, reading from the introduction of beginning pen and ink

Speaker 1:

and an income may seem daunting to some. The inability to erase a mistake can intimidate even the most experienced artists, but within this unforgiving nature, at least the very beauty of the medium, your final ink trying does not just show a polished piece of work. It also shows the energy you use to get there. The second guesses you made along the way and the unintentional lines, you somehow made work as you continue to learn and grow in this medium, you may or may not make fewer mistakes, but you will certainly improve at embracing those mistakes and turning them into an advantage. What do you think about that? I just think, yeah, yeah, that's right. Um, there's definitely a tone in my introduction of trying to be really encouraging, which I think comes through in that paragraph, is that I really want to encourage people to not be afraid of making mistakes. Um, God. And it really relates to what we were just talking about is just like rolling with things. Um, which is funny that I've gotten independent income print cause they're both for other people, very meticulous media. You have to be very careful and they're very messy. But I don't take that approach to things and just like, well I'll make a mistake and it'll be there and it'll be part of the piece and it'll be fine.

Speaker 4:

I think that's so amazing because, so I was like, I'm gonna use your book and I'm going to draw and I'm going to try this. And I saw look at drawing so hard because like I haven't put in the time, I haven't gotten the training. Like, so there's none of this stuff that if it's born within me or whatever, I certainly haven't given an opportunity to grow or be fostered. So like none of the variables are in line. And, and when I read that I was like, Oh my gosh, does she think she actually makes mistakes? And then I like was looking through like, can I find them? Are they in there? I don't see them. I feel so good about this because she's saying she does. So it's just a matter of like how I, how I fix it or not fix it even, but just like use it.

Speaker 1:

Oh totally. Totally. And that's just part of the dance. Since you're, since you say you're like a performing artist. Yeah. That's like part of the dance. You make a mistake in front of people and you'd just handle it gracefully and move on and stuff.

Speaker 4:

People might not even know that she made mistakes. You hope it just didn't break your ankle. Yeah, exactly. Maybe not that big of mistake. Those ones probably you get a different piece of paper and start over. I've, I've only ever, yeah,

Speaker 1:

thrown away one piece that was like beyond recovery. So that's amazing to me is that, well the, a lot of pieces have turned into something different than you were originally going to be set. So it's more of like a, I don't, I don't want to waste my time, so if I'll make a mistake, I'm like, all right, well this is going to be something different now.

Speaker 4:

I have logged so many hours into your you are now a whale. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Now you're a two headed person. That's fine.

Speaker 1:

It's fine. I guess one of the advantages to not being completely realistic, like completely representational. I can just make mistakes and it's fine

Speaker 4:

and then someone comes along with like the two headed person made me think and you're like, I'm so glad cause the two bedded person was I sneezed. Tell me what that means to you. That's on me. It means allergies. You're telling me art is certainly interpretive and what the art means to the artist may be totally different.

Speaker 2:

It's purpose may be different. Or as Brittany Marie explained to their Instagram account the context and motivation is part of it and she only gets a handful of words for that. Someone might see me do stuff that seems, I don't know, provocative or um, shocking or shocking or dark and assume that that is how I am or like the things that I really enjoy and it's like, no, it's just a purging. It's just a purging for me. And not that, not the, it's wrong to be into that genre. It's just not, um, the motivation behind it is different. I guess I could have summed all that up too, just in just saying that context matters and motivation matters, but sometimes that's hard to convey when all you have is one photograph and then a handful of words. So it's precarious. I don't know. What are you conveying when you do the birds? I don't know why I like birds. Um, I think they're colorful. That's probably a simplistic way of putting it. They're just colorful. They're beautiful animals. They're easy to sort of take and interpret. Interpreting a deer is kind of hard cause they're mostly Brown and uh, and not particularly, although as I think about like, no, I could still do it here, do where to do it. But birds are easy to emulate because they are, they're just colorful and I love birds. I think birds have always been my favorite animal. I just, I, I really like words. I don't know. I don't know that it's much more deep than that. I just like birds I think. I think color and liking it is all the answer you need. Does. I find that, I'm like, it's, it's like, uh, was it forest gums? Like DIA, God, make me a bet so I can fly far, far, far away. It's not even that deep. It's just, it's not even that. No, I just like birds. Well that's not the bleeding heart. Dove was like, so cause that one you call out specifically not, not just as being difficult, but like also that the want was that much more. Right? Yeah. And that one is one that I actually, depending on the day I love it or I want to rip it off the internet. I'm serious. Most, most of my other stuff, I'm like, I'm happy with it. And if I'm not happy with stuff, I don't post it. But, but that one, I think because in my head it started out as something I wanted it to be beautiful. I wanted it to be glamorous. I wanted it to be sort of more in that vein. And when it came out to be, was kind of almost scary looking, I wouldn't say scary, but it's dark. Um, like even even the shots that I got and just as a, as in the side for people who haven't ever seen these, most of the, most of the makeup I do, I'm usually wearing something that comes off my shoulders. And you're seeing from your scenes shoulder up and knee, naked shoulders and whatever. I just find because the clothing and dis does distracts from the makeup. So it's not that I'm trying to be scandalous one, I like my clavicle so I have no problems showing it off to. I find the clavicle is actually a very beautiful part on a woman's body and I don't believe that it should be sexualized, but everyone's going to interpret it how they want to. I have no control over that. But also when I did the bleeding heart, so the bleeding heart pigeon or the bleeding heart dub is this beautiful bird. I'm pretty sure it's an Asian bird and it has, it looks like sort of a nondescript blue pigeon, but then it has this white chest and it has this red splotch on its chest that truly looks like someone shot it. And I don't understand, like I'm fascinated by it because it's like why? Like why did it evolve that way? Because you'd think you don't want to appear wounded because predators go after wounded things. Right? Which is as true in the animal kingdom as it is in the, in, in the human world as well. Predators go after people who they think are weak. A lot of times people who seem easy targets to them, often people who are wounded mentally, psychologically, emotionally, physically, they, you become more of a target. You can become more of a target to predators. And so this idea that a creature would evolve, a coloring that makes them look wounded was so fascinating to me. And I think that's why that bird holds so much intrigue. And when I did it, it meant so much to me. And so I wanted it to be perfect. And I don't think, like I said, depending on the day, so I may do that one again some day just because I don't know that I love the way that it turned out because I look haunted is the way that I would describe it. I look haunted in it. The tension in the bleeding dove picture between beauty and this haunted look and the idea that prey would choose to look wounded. That's still on my mind, still sticking with me and it's tension and contrast and Desiree's illustrations. It's the fact that the images stick with me and I have to work through them. I don't just look at the things these two women create. Their art intersects with me somehow and I have to process it. There's one in your book beginning pen and ink as um, they're rule. There's tons in there. I love, I love how much you put in there and that you showed us stages of drawings after we'd seen the product, like the end results. That was very cool. Oh, I can't take credit for all. Like the publisher kind of directed me was a lot of the publisher kind of telling me what they wanted. So I can't take, I can't take credit for all of it, but the layout of the book is someone else's kudos. But the content of the is totally. That's all you want to

Speaker 4:

yeah. That there is one in there. Then I got to the page, it was I think after a series of, um, maybe not whimsical, but you know, you start off with like, here's the differences in paper, here's the differences in pens. And so there's some like just nice representations of papers and pens and things and then we get to this page where there is a girl falling out of a tree. Yes. And I was like, Whoa, this is the first time anything that uh, that I noticed was like heavy. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I stared at it forever and I was trying to figure out what the next, like if you had done this as sequential art, like what the next few sequences would look like. And then like what, because she is in mid fall. Um, and there is nothing on the ground but ground. Right. And I was like, I just, I just spent a lot of time with that one. I really, I really liked it. And I spent time, like, which branch did I think she fought for? I think she fell from that one because those lines like, like intersect to that branch. So I'm from like really just climbing a tree. It's not ending well for her. It's not, it's not. And people get worried, especially kids look at worried when they see that piece. And I'm like, Oh, she'll be fine. Like I don't tell them how or why. Just like she'll be fine. Is that, is that lying to them though? I could not. I, I'm an imaginative person and I could not figure out like how quickly someone could run from behind the tree with a trampoline. And do you know, well, you know, she could land in a certain way. She, that she breaks an arm but not, you know, you should be fine. Um,

Speaker 1:

no, I love that. This might be totally off topic but I have a piece, I think you may have seen it that as a bear and they're like children inside the bear. Kind of like a Jonah, Jonah and the whale thing, but with kids and a bear and thinking like this is how Goldilocks really en it was. It was totally based on like old German fairy tales and how dark they are, but I love hearing people come in because like one person will come in and it's like, Oh the bear ate the kids. That's so sad. That's such a dark piece and the next person will come in and be like, Oh that bear is protecting those kids from what's outside. That's so nice. It's like, it's really funny to hear people's, and I don't have an like there is, there's not really a right answer. I love that moment right before something bad might happen or something bad is happening, but it hasn't happened yet. And I think a lot of

Speaker 4:

S

Speaker 1:

so I'm especially my early stuff, which that tree is an earlier one is really heavily influenced by Edward Gorey. And he loved that moment, like right after something bad would happen. And some of his stuff was kind of like bloody and kind of, and I'm not into blood and Gore, but I love that moment right before something bad happens. Cause you don't know that it's going to happen. Like you don't know that she's going to get seriously injured. Right. She could get minor injuries, you know, and I maybe I'm just making this connection now, but maybe that's kind of how we live our lives. Right. Or how I feel like I'm living my life is like this constant fall and you don't lost it moment before something terrible. Tiny. Yeah. I mean that might be the anxiety talking, but um, like you just don't know what's gonna happen and something terrible could happen. Something terrible can happen, but it hasn't yet. And so we'll just keep like going along. Just keep, cause you don't know that she's going to die. She might not. She might break an arm and learn from it. She might climb the tree again. Like who knows? I think this is, I think this is the exact moment of where it's like, this is why you're working so optimistic to me because you give, you give it an out. I almost always, yeah, that's true. I didn't even think of that. Yeah. So I'd so I spent a long time trying to like follow the out. I guess she hasn't hit the ground. Love that you did that there's somebody behind the tree with the net. She'll be fine with pictures of his like clowns like the ones that like, like I'm done though. Cause one of the first things I saw of yours that really caught my eye at the Utah arts festival was um, like a carnival circus one in the woman you standing. So, so I already had like carnivals or cause like marinating in the back of my mind with you. And so it was like, yeah, a bunch of clowns are gonna pile out of the tree to save her for you. That's what's going to happen. That's fine. Sure. So I do that with little[inaudible] because all the time I'm always like, Oh, it's fine. There's somebody there like she'll be fighting. Not that you have that, not that you're a little kid, but you let me see what I want to see. Yeah, totally, totally. And while I might, I might see something darker. I'm, well it depends on the day. Some days I see something real dark and sometimes I don't like, that's why they're open to interpretation. Do you feel like you have any level of, I don't want to use the word judgment cause I feel like that means you have to say no. But do you, do you underestimate, I will happily admit to being a judgmental person.[inaudible] your characters. Do you like when you're looking at, at her, for example, the girl falling from the tree, are you ever like, you shouldn't have been on that higher limb, like there's a tire swing. Why weren't you on the swing? Oh no, I think they're all me. The ones that, the pieces that are meaningful are all knee. So only in as much as I judge myself and I would, I never like, my thought is like, I'm so glad you weren't just on the swing. Like get up in that tree and see how high you can go and Oh well you fell like that. That will happen. That happens. Maybe you'll die. Oh well that is so that is so roll with it for someone who has anxiety. Yeah. Isn't that weird? That's pretty cool. But tell me about that. How does I think it might be one of my ways of dealing with anxiety because when I was younger I was super like, I was afraid, so afraid of what everybody thought of me and just afraid of everything. Afraid earthquakes. Like I can't function if I don't just roll with it. I literally cannot function. There was a time in my life where like I didn't want to leave the house. I was essentially a Gore phobic. I was afraid of everything and leaving the house terrified me. And so I really had to develop an attitude of just, I know I'm not going to die. I mean in so far as everybody knows they're not going to die and I just had to learn to roll with it and that's big time how I treat social situations now like just roll with it. If they think you're ridiculous like then you're ridiculous, whatever, like and without that I can't function like I really had to teach myself that. Was that like a a mantra thing or how, how did you teach yourself that? I don't even, well I haven't thought about it. You're asking all these things that I've never thought about before. I don't know. I probably therapy was really helpful in teaching me to just like be okay with how things are and not thinking ahead into the future all the time. I dunno. Socially I remember looking around and just trying to understand how other people were able to function socially and just noticing that they didn't seem to care. Like when the cool kids tripped, they just like recovered and went on. They didn't make a deal about it. They, I don't know.

Speaker 3:

Bridie is so cognizant and careful about the word she puts out on her podcast and on her blog, she's been attacked and taken out of context for those words that her Instagram, makeup, art and that form of expression hasn't exposed her to the same criticisms. And she has a very different relationship with those images. Maybe because of that. Maybe just, anyway,

Speaker 2:

the art that I, I even hate saying that the art that I do with my makeup is not, it's just an expression. And so now I've become the thing that I've always hated them always. I'm just like, it's just my expression. Okay, Liz, this is just how I express myself and I don't care if people like it or not, I just have to express myself. But, but that's, that's different than the words for you. Uh, I don't know. I think the makeup, because I don't think I'm very good at it, is more, it's like a, you know, when you're, you're a mother, so you know when your little kids bring you like a finger painting and they say, I made you this, or a macaroni necklace. The unkind thing to do would be like, this has, this has exactly$0 million value. Like I could not sell this on Etsy kind of thing because that's mean, and it's, and you know that it's a child and it's a child doing what a child can do. And so of course you say it's beautiful, this is beautiful, and you take it and you put it up on the fridge and you're like, I'm so proud of you. This is a great, that's what I feel about my makeup. Honestly. Instagram is your macaroni noodle necklace. Yes. Instagram is my refrigerator where like I go and I put things up on there and I'm just like, I know this isn't great because look, I'm comparing myself. You have to understand, because I work in this field, I have friends who are professional makeup artists. Yeah. People like cat Nelson. A drew is another one where the stuff they're doing is incredible. I mean like cat does these full body paintings with just airbrush where it looks like they're wearing clothing, but they're naked and they're, it's like, it's like I'm skin Wars that show, people know. And I look at their stuff and I think that is our, and I know I shouldn't compare like I know that's not the point, but like I do and and so I'm under no delusions that the makeup work that I'm doing is some like great on guards thing that people should be like, Oh yes and also here have money for this. It really is. It's the macaroni necklace. That's the perfect way of putting it.

Speaker 1:

It's my refrigerator. Mastering these skills gives you the building blocks of a language through which you can communicate beyond words and reach people with whom you never would have spoken. Yeah. So that's like you said, that's true. Just generally for me, big time because I travel a lot and meet a lot of people through my art. Um,

Speaker 5:

okay.

Speaker 1:

But the one specific story I can think of was really early on in my career and I know there are a million stories and I feel bad that I haven't been able to think of them. But this one really struck me because I think it was the first time where, not where somebody connected with my art, but where somebody unexpectedly connected with my art and it was this little teeny tiny art show up in Logan and a guy came up, he had kids and I, you know, as an artist you can kind of tell like this person looks like they'll like my work. This person doesn't, which is rude and judging people on how they look, but it tends to hold true in marketing. Yeah. Recognizing your demographic. So he came in and he kind of looked like maybe he was a farmer or just like a hard blue collar worker. He had a couple of kids in tow. Um, they came in and I was like, okay, like his kids might like some of my things, like he's not going to connect with it at all. Um, and he saw this piece and I think he teared up. He got emotional and just really connected to this piece. And I wasn't paying very close attention to him because I had prejudged him and then he just bought the original. And the look in his eyes said that he very much connected with it. And it was this piece about a man who's essentially being buried alive. Like it's kind of a cross section and you can see a man in a coffin and everybody above him is having a funeral, but he's like alive in the coffin underground, which is terrifying. Um, but he like grabbed it and kind of was tearing up and just bought the original piece, which is not, you know, it's an investment. It's a little bit of money. Yeah.

Speaker 5:

Um,

Speaker 1:

and he never, he never told me his story and I've made up all kinds of stories for him, but there was definitely like this person that I probably may have talked to but wouldn't have felt like I would've ever connected with, literally without words. We very strongly connected through that piece. And again, I don't know what it meant to him, but I know that it meant something and that he loved it and he didn't even, he didn't have to say it. Like you could just tell any bought it and walked off and we never had a conversation. And maybe I remember it because I can make up all kinds of things that he might've been feeling, but I definitely know, you know, kind of what that piece emanates. And so like we connected over what that piece meant on a deeper level than words.

Speaker 2:

Some of the stuff that you put on Instagram though is, um, I don't know. In, in my mind it's not quite as neutral as birds. Like the clouds, the clouds kind of freaky. Scary. Yeah. The clowns I think come from more of a place. I think the way I tried to describe it once was the clowns are the inner most expression of the fear and anxiety that I'm always carrying around and cause I'm being, I'm afraid of clowns I don't even know you afraid of. I think most sane people are afraid of clowns, right? There's, there's something, there's something eerie about clowns and because, because they're meant to be this playful child sort of, you know, like this, this innocent thing. And then someone came around, came along and like made an evil clown and you corrupted something that was supposed to be beautiful and innocent and simple, which often tend to be the most disturbing things. It's another, that's the reason why horror films are always more scary when there's a child in it. Like when you've got a scary child that's so much more disturbing than, than like a psychopathic adult because you're like a, you know, a serial killer, a grown man who's a serial killer. Yeah. Old hat, man. We get, it happens. It's fine. But you've got like this little kid's like, hello mother with like the knife.

Speaker 6:

Yeah. You're like,

Speaker 2:

that's just not supposed to happen. Yeah. You're corrupting something beautiful and that's what clowns are like. You're taking something fun and you're making it scary and all that to say that. Yeah. I, I think the clowns are, I don't know. It started with, um, it, yes, the original. Yeah, the Pennywise cause he's horrifying and I thought, well, and then the new, it came out a few years ago and I actually really liked it because I like the actor who plays Pennywise. I actually think he's a very attractive person. So that was enough for me to be able to go see the movie and not be scared by the clown because I knew the actor underneath it. And you're just picturing like[inaudible] yes, yes. So I had this sort of quasi crush on Pennywise. I'm just like, I'm like, if that clown came into my bedroom, no problem, I would be fine with this. But so, so it's kinda like, yeah, I think that it's, it's the same way that in therapy a lot of times therapists will, will force you to face your fear. Like, if you're afraid of Heights, they'll, you know, take you up on a high mountain and say like, okay, take 10 steps to the edge now take 11 now take 12 now take 13 and now, and then by the end of it, hopefully you're, you're able to stand pretty close to the precipice and be like, this is okay. You know, and I, so I think it's, I forget what it's called. It has a specific name like conditioning. It might be like desense desensitizing descendants. Desensitive T Oh my goodness. I can't say it. But you desensitize yourself towards something over time. Am I saying that where I sensitize? Yes, I'm positive you're saying it right. It just sounds wrong in my head. The words I speak. So I think that's part of it is take something that you're afraid of. Do it. And I don't know, there's also something about becoming the thing that you're afraid of that is empowering to like when you actually have the clown makeup on, you feel what I feel. You feel like now you almost sort of like embodying the thing. It's not even a thing. It's, it's that feeling, that essence of fear, and then you become the fear, which again, I know I said at the beginning of this, like I really disliked some artists because of their pretentiousness. And I feel like everything I'm saying right now, super pretentious, but it is hard to articulate this stuff is, it is really hard to articulate this. I mean, it may help maybe if it's okay to give a little context. Yeah. And then, and then, okay. So growing up, and I've been honest, I've been pretty open about this. I don't know though, ever spoken really openly about this, so kudos to you world exclusive. But growing up I was, I was terrified of my dad, like terrified. And I'm only saying this because I'm pretty sure he'll never listen to this. And also even if he does, Oh, well. Uh, so I don't, I don't have a relationship with my father anymore. Growing up I was terrified of my dad. I won't get into the specifics about why I was terrified of my dad. But like, um, there were times where I would like sleep under my bed because I was just scared. And because of that, uh, cause I know you and I have talked about like my anxiety and it's kinda like, well where does that come from? And I haven't, I've shared a little bit on other platforms about the experience I have with the stalker when I was in my twenties. Yeah. And that was pretty critical and pivotal for me. But I think the bulk of my anxiety and when I talk about having like PTSD, actually complex PTSD, not PTSD, there is a difference. Don't ask me to explain it right now, but, um, the bulk of my trauma comes from my childhood. So I think that I've been hiding quote unquote, from that fear, from that boogeyman since I was little. And the thing is, I do believe that if not addressed, we do carry those wounds with us into our adulthood. And so I think I just carried that fear with me too, to the point now where as an adult you don't even really know why you're scared anymore. It's just such a constant companion for you and has been such a constant companion for you, for most of your life that you just, it's the best way I put it. It's like a shadow. It just follows you and you, you sort of stop questioning it unless you end up going into therapy, which a lot of people do. And some people find it helpful and some people find it, it actually exacerbates the situation. So, and I've done both. I've done therapy and not, but anyways, my point is that, so the clowns are almost like there's that tangible feeling of anxiety that sometimes you can, you feel it. Like I said, it's, it's tangible and sometimes you can put on like a face of makeup or play a character on stage and it's like exercising that demon just a little bit. Like you're like, you're off gassing. Yeah. Like to, to put it politely. Offgassing

Speaker 3:

Desirae again, reading from beginning pen and ink. But this time from the very last page about the artist

Speaker 1:

Desirae creates work that revolves around themes of finding humor in pain, beauty in the grotesque and light in the darkness.

Speaker 3:

So I was like dichotomies and opposites. Why, why, why that?

Speaker 1:

I think part of it is I like the tension. Um, I like the tension of two things that you don't expect going together. I also just feel like that's how I was living my life for a really long time. Um, within that tension, within that tension of trying to survive in a place that was really unhealthy for me. Um, so it's just somewhere that I'm very familiar with and maybe comfortable with honestly. Um, I'm very comfortable being in that place that most people are very uncomfortable with.

Speaker 3:

Um, does, does it start for you in one of those camps and then you look for the other, like, are you like, I have this grotesque idea, how do I make it beautiful? Or do you like, I have this beautiful idea and what can I find in it that's,

Speaker 7:

yeah,

Speaker 1:

no, usually for me it just happens naturally. It's just kind of where I live artistically. They just simultaneously coexist. Yeah. Or maybe there's that moment in my head, you know, we were talking about that moment where it switches, where I'll be working on something in my head and all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, that's what needs to go there. I think oftentimes that's the balance of whatever. So maybe I'm making something really pretty in my head and I'm like, that's going to be beautiful, but like it doesn't really mean anything to me. And then something will happen where I'm like, Oh, that's, that's it. Oh, example. I was just working on a piece that was representative of my siblings for no reason whatsoever. And it was like this really pretty piece. And I was like, kids are going to be birds and roses and it's going to be really pretty. And I was like, Oh, um, Oh. In a tarantula there needs to be a tarantula. Like, Oh, that's right. Okay. And then I could draw the piece like siblings. Yeah. Yeah. My brother was the translate by the way, and this is continuing my, my, I always mentioned him anytime I'm in a podcast, it's really weird. This is like the special yesterday. Yeah, it's really weird. It's just like, it's just the space that I'm in. It's just where I'm comfortable. And sometimes it's a humor thing. Like sometimes I'll be like, okay, well it'll be funny.

Speaker 8:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But often it's just what makes it feel right to me. You just have this like gut reaction to it, whether it's right or wrong when you've got it. Yeah. It just doesn't feel right until that, that tension is there.

Speaker 2:

I just don't know. I don't know that I know how to do or be different and, and maybe, maybe that's why we all do the things that we do because we don't know how to do something different. And so you, you carry on day to day with a love hate relationship with the things that you're doing. I'm constantly, constantly in this internal battle with myself constantly where it's like, I want to stop doing this and I want the white picket fence and I want, you know, to be married and I just want to have zero presence on the internet. I don't want anyone to know who I am other than the people that you face to face. See in your daily life? Absolutely. I do not want the world to know my name. Is that weird given, given what I use? Yes. Completely contradictory. I don't want anyone to know who I am. I want to be a disembodied entity that exists in the, in the genres that exist in. But then as soon as it's over, I want to disappear into the ether.

Speaker 1:

I know that. And so I will paint myself like a bird. Yes.

Speaker 2:

And so I was so camouflage as a bird or whatever it is, and I'll wear, I'll wear so many hats that people can't pin me down. I guess

Speaker 1:

going for our, for me it was never, it's always been pursuing it with everything I have. This was never going to be a side thing for you? No, not really. No. And I think that's just how I work because I know plenty of artists that are successful, good artists that also have another job. Um, but for me there's something about, I think I have a very limited amount of energy and so I have to put it all into one thing. I mean, and not that I put it all into one thing, but like professional energy, like it's very limited for not very limited, but I have a limited amount. Yeah. Um, you've that you like the focus, like the single objective? I think so, yeah. The single objective and just, I mean this is gonna flow naturally into our talking about my depression and anxiety, but it's the times that I feel well enough to be really working hard, like at my full capacity are not all the time. So if I was trying to focus on one job and then do art on the side, like I just don't think I would have the energy to try to focus fully on two things. Um, as opposed to just focusing on one thing for better or for worse. Like it's probably to my detriment but, but also probably not. Yeah. I mean in some, I mean there is something to be said for like I have to make the rent. How am I going to make this work with my career choice? Yeah. Have you ever like sat down and been like, okay, paper and ink we got bills? Oh, totally. Oh yeah. Yeah. In fact that's a lot of my summer. Not that my art isn't still really personal, but like in the summer it's like I just have two droppings. I just have to, because I'm doing all these shows and selling all these things. And so it's just, I just have to draw. Like I just have to keep trying

Speaker 2:

to the extent that the quirkiness, this sort of like self, this, this no filter of like self-expression or whatever. It's like, no, in fact I wish I could be different. I wish I wasn't like that, but over time I've just had to accept it. It's just who I am. And so it's, I mean like not to get too like white wall about it, but like I've just had to accept over time that um, you can only commit social suicide so many times before you just kind of go, this is just how people are going to know me.

Speaker 1:

It's fine. Um, that's something I've just been learning the last few years is really honestly being aware of how what I'm doing affects me and taking things at the appropriate pace. We were talking in what Mike check, I guess about what you ate for breakfast and is that, is that kind of part of that? Definitely part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Is I had that kind of a breakdown how long ago now? Like a year and a half ago where I was just doing way too much. Like I was literally working as the hardest I've ever worked in my life and I just broke, like I just, my brain kind of broke for a whole aisle. Um, and so I am now very conscious what trying to be, I'm not always, but I'm trying to be very conscious of my body, what I put into it, giving it what it needs, but also really conscious of my mental state, taking time to rest, taking time to walk the dog. Um, and so far it's kind of made, I mean I've had to slow, I've had to slow way down. Um, and I think it's making a difference this year seems to be better than the last couple. So we'll see. Okay, cool. Thank you for sharing that. You gotta of course

Speaker 2:

I see this happening in the world. There are certain individuals and I don't, I don't tout myself as any public figure at all. Like I'm known by a handful of people in the community and maybe a handful of people outside the community because of the work that I've done. But there are people out there much more, much more in the public eye than I am and much more famous and much more important that for whatever reason, seem to have that same attitude of like, I have no problem just laying my, my life, my thoughts, my garbage out there. And then, you know, it, the reaction seems to be you'll get a certain handful of people that are just like, thank you so much for telling your story. Um, it means the world to me. I thought I was the only one. I'm afraid to talk about this in public. I haven't even told my family about this. And so I appreciate the fact that you are brave enough or willing enough to put yourself out there in a way that I can, I almost guarantee I never will kind of thing, but just so you know, you're not alone kind of thing. And then, and then you'll get there. The reaction to people on the other side to where look, like if I, if I come out and talk about autism and I talk about my autism or I come out and I talk about like complex PTSD again to go along with people, like to put people in boxes, not in a malicious way and not because people want to or the not because they're purposefully doing it. They will put you to some extent into a box. They'll put you into an autistic box or they'll put you into a, like if I'm talking about my trauma, they'll put me into a broken box because they're getting this tiny snapshot, this one facet of my life,

Speaker 3:

and they are making that the whole thing. A broken box. I don't want to put Bridie or Deseret into any box, let alone one like broken. Yes, I know. I just put together an entire episode linking these two together through their art and trauma, anxiety, depression, and autism. But my experience of these interviews live and in editing them was one of so much nuance in insight and complexity in laughter. There is tension and dichotomy and contrast, beauty in the darkness, laughter in the pain and vulnerability in the expression of Brady's engagement with words and makeup and Desiree's, meticulous pen strokes and rolling with mistakes. I had so much more content for this episode than I could possibly fit. And so I highly encourage you to listen to next week scrap assaults segments that are too good for the cutting room floor to hear Bridie and Deseret talk more, laugh more, and give me more to think about

Speaker 2:

the part of me that I'm going to be thinking about and then drive home

Speaker 4:

after this interview. After this word vomit. Yes. Go on. Is we gotta have it

Speaker 2:

word for a storyteller who is producing content that is somewhat autobiographical but isn't limited by autobiography. Yeah. Um, and through mediums and modalities where it isn't always clear if the moment is creative nonfiction or creative fiction or, or uh, just for kicks and giggles cause that had a lot of colors and I liked it. It doesn't always have to mean anything profound. Yeah. And I don't think we have, I don't think we have a label for that. I don't think that's a box yet. And I think that that's part of why I wanted to interview with you is because[inaudible]

Speaker 4:

I'm making my own box baby

Speaker 2:

set hands in many pies. But you, you participate in the creation of content in a lot of cross genre or genre defining ways. I think that's interesting. And you wouldn't be doing that if you took all this down and PR the heck out of your life. It. It's a, it was a choice that I had to make and it's a choice that I make daily and the choice on any given day there. There are days where I wake up, even right now, I have got some episodes of the podcast that I'm thinking to myself. I'm like, I don't know if I'll publish these. I don't know if I'm ever going to do another podcast again, and that might be the flare of the dramatic inmate, but also the for real. Every, every day I wake up and I think to myself, is this the path that I want to continue to walk down? Is this what I want to continue to do or am I done? Am I done doing this? Can I just sort of put all this away and have a quote unquote normal life, you know? But at the answer so far apparently has been no. Do you know why it's been though other than I don't. I don't know that I know how to be any other way than what I am.

Speaker 3:

Picasso said, unless your painting goes wrong, it will be no good. Now, I don't want to say the same as true of life, but I really liked Desiree's approach to rolling with mistakes. And I admire her comfort with tension. Nietzsche said, we have art in order not to die from the truth, like Bridie I off gas or purge things through the work that I do, especially when I dance or right. It's a healthy creative form of emotional ventilation and it releases some pressure that doesn't put me in the same box as Brittney or Deseret because I'm not putting any of us in boxes. I just find their art and their thoughts captivating, refuting it's personal and it's expressive and there's technique behind it and it's complicated. And that keeps me listening and looking and thinking,

Speaker 2:

well, if after all of that, people are still interested in things I have to say, or birds I have to paint. Uh, you can, you can look up the bemuse podcast. Uh, I am on Facebook or I'm on Apple and Google and all those things, and if you want to see my Instagram stuff, you can go to Britney Marie and you can look at all my birds. My profile is now open, which is horrifying. So you can follow me without my approval, which I hate. Go on.

Speaker 4:

Yup. Here. All my social media plugs. Oh gosh. Nope. That's me. Every single time. I'm like, I guess if you want to you can please just leave me alone though. Just look at the stuff and then don't say anything about it. You don't even have to like it. Just, just look at it for the love. Please don't leave a rating. Please don't. Someone asked me other day like how many people are following your podcast? I'm like, I have no idea. I can't look at that number. Why would I want to know that? Because if it's small, I'm going to feel bad and if it's big, I'm going to feel terrible.

Speaker 2:

Fine. So I preferred just the ignorance of bliss, the bliss of ignorance. If you like my stuff, don't tell me.

Speaker 4:

Enjoy, enjoy it privately. That's all. That's the end. Thank you.

Speaker 3:

Oh yes. Thank you Brady Marie and Deseret Lee does. Thank you so much for letting me come down to your studio and interview today. Thank you for coming. You are both refreshing, delightful and insightful and talking about your art and your vulnerabilities. The music by Gordon VDS in the telling is hosted and produced by me. Liz Christianson, thank you for listening.

Speaker 9:

[inaudible].