Between the Lines "Bounce" with Krista Davies

This episode is part of a series of book discussions on the art and craft of storytelling called "Between the Lines."

Show Notes: contains affiliate links

Special Guest:  Krista Davies is a Producer at Centerpoint Legacy Theatre and the General Manager at The MT Pit, The World's premiere Broadway backing track library.

The basic premise of “Bounce” is summed up by this quote from psychologist and researcher Anders Ericsson, “We deny that differences [in talent] are immutable; that is, due to innate talent.  Instead we argue that the differences between expert performers and normal adults reflect a life-long persistence of deliberate effort to improve performance.” 

Episode Chapters:
7:47 Subjective Art
12:21 Purposeful Practice
"Expert practice is different.  It entails considerable, specific, and sustained efforts to do something you can't do well--or even at all.  Research across domains shows that it is only by working at what you can't do that you turn into the expert you want to become." Anders Ericsson
17:59 Feedback
"We need to know where we are going wrong if we are going to improve."  Matthew Syed
27:52 Iceberg Illusion
"When we witness extraordinary feats...we are witnessing the end product of a process measured in years...we are laboring under the illusion that expertise is reserved for special people with special talents, inaccessible to the rest of us." Matthew Syed
34:54 The Gap
"World-class performance comes by striving for a target just out of reach, but with a vivid awareness of how the gap might be breached." Matthew Syed
48:11 Deep Domain Knowledge
"The most important ingredient in any expert system is knowledge.  Programs that are rich in general inference methods...but poor in domain-specific knowledge can behave expertly on almost no tasks." Bruce Buchanan, Randall, Davis, Edward Feigenbaum
54:24 Zero-Sum Games and Economics
57:54 Defining Moments

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to a special in the telling episode, the first and new series called between the lines in which my guests and I discussed the art and craft a storytelling using a nonfiction book as a spring board. In this episode, Christa Davies and I will be referencing bounce the myth of talent and the power of practice by Matthew Simon. Krista Davies is a producer at center point Lake as he theater and the general manager at the empty pit, the world's premier Broadway backing track library references Bay to the book including excerpts and links to clarify concepts are included in the show notes for your listening convenience. This episode has been broken into chapters available to those of you listening on platforms that support podcast chapters. Krista Davies was indirectly one of the inspirations behind the in the telling podcast and these between the lines episodes in particular. Some of my favorite interactions with Krista over the past few years have taken place late at night in an empty theater lobby or well after the production meeting was over and they always seem to include ideas from a nonfiction book. One of us was reading. We've also talked about storytelling tropes and novelties from TV shows, movies, and of course theater. My enjoyment of those conversations was a large part of the Genesis of this podcast, so when I decided to create this between the lines string of episodes, I just knew Christa Davies had to be my first book conversation guessed. The basic premise of bounce is summed up by this quote from psychologist and researcher Anders Ericsson quote. We deny that differences in talent are immutable. That is due to innate talent. Instead, we argue that differences between expert performers and normal adults reflect a lifelong persistence of deliberate effort to improve performance and quote,

Speaker 2: 1:49

you know, the whole basis of anyone. You can be whatever you want. Anyone can be like an all star golf player. I'm like, I disagree with that. I think that some people have natural gifts and abilities. I could take, let's say my nephew, who who he's not coordinated at all, and then my other nephew who is very, he's very athletic and there's no way I could get the same results out of those kids given the same training. I just don't, I don't believe that. So I think it's an 80 20 rule, you know, the 80 20 rule, not necessarily, Hey, I mean this applies to a lot of things like, like you talk about like a diet, 80% of it is really what you eat and 20% of it is the exercise you put in. Yeah. So I think people when they're successful, I think 80% of it is hard work training what he talks about. But I think 20% of it is, I don't want to say God given talents, but something innate and your innate genetic maybe. So at that, that's my belief. I mean he obviously has done a lot more research, but I'm just saying, and we talk about theater, right? Yeah. It doesn't matter how darn talented you are. There's some parts that if you don't look right, you're not getting it

Speaker 3: 3:08

right. And that at that part, I mean I feel like that's different from everything that he talks about because it's purely like visual, right? You have very little control over that. I mean, I guess you can have surgeries and stuff, but by and large you look the way you're going to look.

Speaker 2: 3:23

Yeah. And you're the height. You are like my brother Matt, he was called back for beetle juice. They had them all line up and he was the only blonde kid there and they pick the dark headed kid. He's like, I didn't have a chance. Like that's the look they were going for. And same thing for Anastasia called back final call back. He, they, they went with a taller kid and all the other guys were taller and you could just see in the lineup when you're the outlier that yeah, yeah, the outlier. You're like, yeah, I'm not getting this. And that's okay. If you realize as you, whatever career you're going into and about that happens to be the arts and whether it's a career or a hobby, the more you understand that it's a visual art, but that's gonna play into it to a certain

Speaker 3: 4:09

extent. I feel like people are really sensitive about that, at least locally, that it's a performing art. So all that matters is my talent. And it is a visual art. Maybe not as visual as film, but I think it's getting there.

Speaker 2: 4:28

Yeah, well we talk about, um, it's, we're storytelling, right? And if the audience doesn't believe that person, and there's some people where I've gone to a show or I'm like, Oh, they like immediately to come out. You're like, I can't buy into that. And then they win you over. Kudos to them. But I think that that's hard to do, especially locally in Davis County. I don't want to pick on Davis County, but people have expectations. We were talking last night about, um, our next year season and what are the expectations our audience is going to have coming in now we can, we can adjust that. But what are some things that when we put it on the season, we were like, Oh, well this has to happen. For instance, Mary Poppins in our facility, our patron base is going to expect her to fly. Yeah. And that was one of the things we required when we did our production. I'm like, shit, she has, she has to fly that people are buying tickets to see her fly. So we can do a lot of fun, creative stuff, but this is something that we need to keep in there. So I mean that's just the, for instance, yeah. Of why I don't think this book applies completely to theater. I mean even sports, you have to have a certain build for things. Right?

Speaker 3: 5:47

I never really got into that in a way that satisfied the fact for me that there is a greater preponderance of expert African Americans and the white guys. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 5:58

I mean just, just the statistics alone. And it's the same thing we see in the performing arts, right? I mean, if you take the population of blacks in America, the performing artists on Broadway, that's not the percentage. It's a lot higher with African Americans. And he, and he touches on the book about why he thinks that is the case because Oh, you're, you're black. You're not smart. That was a general prejudice, a stereotype where they had those, those students listen to a basketball game and they, um, we're focusing on player. And one subject group was led to believe the player was white and another was led to believe it was black. And so the, the player that was white was, Oh, he, he's smarter. He's, you know, he, he, he's really has a knowledge of the game. He knows what to do. But, um, the black player was athletically superior. And so when you do that, when, when these kids grow up with that stereotype, Oh, well, if I'm supposed to be black, then I should be an ER. If I am black, I should be an athlete or performer or things that lead to those abilities just because of my genetics. So I dunno, I, I thought he made some really good points. I would got through the whole book and I was waiting for a, but, and it never came where he never, he, he never really argued with himself, not his assertions. No, he never played devil's advocate. And I was waiting for that and I really liked the book, found it interesting. But I think, um, I think you owe that almost to your audience and be like, look, I acknowledge this. And he didn't maybe kind of offhandedly every once in a while, but he made some good points.

Speaker 3: 7:44

I think I expected, uh, from just the cover, right. He picks out Mozart, federal, Picasso at Becca. Um, I expected at some point for there to be like truly a performing arts example. I never got one. You get music. Yeah. He goes back to those violinists like all the time. Um, and he spends a decent amount of time on Picasso but never really did cause it just, I think by nature it can't transfer

Speaker 2: 8:11

cause it's so subjective. Right. When you talk about, he even talked about Michael Phelps, you know, the greatest swimmer of all time where you have, you can, um, measure their success, right. Whether it's championships, metals, world records, whatever it is. And how do you, I mean, Tony awards, Emmy awards, is that how you might like, do we say Meryl Streep is the greatest of all time, but what was her training? You know, what methods he, that's hard for him. I think to do research on,

Speaker 3: 8:40

yeah. I don't think you could be scientific about that because each person's going to have their own variables. So he, so when he talks about his, um, his stroke, right. And it wasn't until he could replicate the same stroke every single time that he had any idea whether

Speaker 2: 8:56

or not that particular hit was working for X, Y, or Z reasons. Yeah. Too many variables. Yes. Yeah. Well nobody is going to have all of Meryl Streep's roles. So like how do we know and the circumstances under neath it. Cause even with sports you have, you have rules and guidelines and parameters that, you know, everyone has to work within and of theirs. Don't get me wrong, I grew up playing sports. There's a lot of variables. Um, you know, was it windy that day on the field or you know, who was pitching. So you have that kind of, those kinds of things. There's not stats, there's, she's not stats to measure performing artists. And so I kind of want to make you come up with some though. Like what do you think? Oh, what would I say? Yeah. If actors had like tradable cards. Yeah. What stats would be on the back? Oh, you know, you could go like voice tight. Um, you know, Sidney put on audition for him. You could do height, you could do your dance training and the all the different dances. You know, how many years you've had training in each one. I mean we, we have special skills on there. Right. But how many of those things factor into a particular role or with, I mean they just had the NFL draft, you know, they have these combines where they had these kids come in and they were on the 40 yard dash and they measure, measure their height, their hand span. That's important for a quarterback's and how high they can jump. So there's like, you know, 10 things they measure them on, but you get into performing arts when we could, the lists could be go on forever. Right? Yeah. Well, and I mean inches are totally objective. You say voice typing before I, um, before I realized you're talking about like vocal parts, I was like, is she thinking about like tone? Is she talking about? But that's the other thing. And that's what I kept thinking of when he was saying, well, you know, you could make yourself better. You can do all these things, get better vocal tone though. I mean for the most part that's really hard to change with someone. Right. So you could, you could like impersonate someone else kind going to be you. Yeah. And in that natural tone that people, you know, you're just like, bro, I went to the bread Stokes Mitchell concert last week. That guy could sing forever. But how do you replicate his tone? You can't, or everyone would would, or everyone should want to. I mean, cause it's gorgeous. Yeah. You'd be highly successful. So it, stuff like that where it's like, I don't care how much training you have. I don't think you're ever going to sound like Brian Stokes Mitchell without a little bit of innate genetics that was built into you, I think. I think I agree with you about that. And I think, um, I don't know. I feel like there's so much about theater, um, in our area where people just chalk it up to taste right. Oh, they just liked me or they didn't. Yeah. Or it wasn't what they wanted or I was what they wanted or what they're looking for. I mean, we have all these euphemisms for, um, something that is esoteric and out of our control. Yeah. With that though, I mean, it's good to know what you are and what you're not. Um, however, if you know what you're not and you want to be that, there's definitely things you can do to make yourself better for some of them. So let's talk about that. Yeah. So I mean, you dance training, a lot of people, at least at our theaters, some of them have had formal training, but a lot of them just picked it up through shows. And I think they found I have a gift for this or natural ability I didn't realize I was capable of. And whether they choose to go and take classes to improve that or they just do it through the shows that they're in to gain that knowledge that uh, from the choreographers, I mean you got to make yourself better, right? If you wanna roll fight for, do the things that make you stand out to get that role and the attributes that pertained to that role, do you think there, there's a decent amount of people though that are in show after show and the don't progress? Yes. What? Sorry. I agree with you because I was reading it and when he gets to the part about purposeful practice, like you can't just go hit a couple balls around the golf course. Right. And say that that was clocking in that 10,000 hours of expertise. Yeah. You gotta have like an aim and a drive and an understanding. So how, if we're talking just about participation in show after show, what is the difference between somebody who does the show and progresses and somebody who does the show and just does the show? I think some people, and there's nothing wrong with this, they just do it because it's fun. Right? I had a friend say to me, well, I asked him, are you going to try for the show? Oh no, that's going to be too much work. That takes way too much time. I need to do a show like my fair lady. And I thought, well that's going to be more work than you think. But um, so she'll like that where that was in his wheelhouse. He was comfortable with what was going to be asked of him for that particular show. Not particularly dance heavy. Good singer can hold apart, you know, there's a, there's some characterization in there, but he wouldn't have to stretch himself. And so when he comes to rehearsal or perform, he just wants to have a good time. And there's nothing wrong with that. We hope everyone has a good time. I take a different approach to things. I'm like, Hey, if I'm going to do this, I want to stretch myself. I want to learn a new skill. I want to become better at this. So next time I can either get the role I want or I've gained something from it. Yeah. I'm all for transformative participation as opposed to just like that was a great way to kill time. Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing, like I said, there's nothing wrong with that mentality if that's what you're in it for. What we always, and you know this as a director, we always aim to push people a little bit beyond their comfort zone because I think you get a better product when they have to work for it. You know? So for one of our goals at CenterPoint is that people come out of it with something a little bit more, whether, I mean and new friends great, but that they feel like they are a better performer having done it. And I think you can pick that up, whether it's watching another performer. Um, you can pick up a lot from observing that, but also our production team can give them a lot of things to either work on, think about or push them, stretch them towards. Um, my favorite shows are those ones that stretch people. They, they may be their a level five on dance and we're like, Hey, we're getting you to a level seven, whatever that may mean, but it's like, you think you're a five, but we're going to push you beyond that. And you know what, some people, they might not be capable of that, but if you don't try, we don't push them. We'll never know. And we can adjust that to their capabilities because you never want to set someone up to fail. It's always putting someone in a position to succeed. Yeah. That's really important to us. Um, so that they feel good about the process and that also your audience can observe that you can only go as far as, as your casts. And I really believe that casting is so important and that it's not just, I'm not talking about just talents, but their willingness to go beyond what they think they are capable of. So that kind of, what would you call that? Just like a trust or a drive or within the performer or there's gotta be a drive there because if they don't want to do it, they're not going to do it. I think some production teams are really good at inspiring people to do that and motivating them. And usually I think positive teaching is the best way to do that. You know, you don't yell at them that, that doesn't motivate me. I don't know if it motivates other people, but they have to see the purpose behind it. I don't want you to do this just because we think that's going to be cool looking. It's gotta be part of the story. It's gotta drive the story. It's got to, um, there's got to have meaning behind it instead of we're just gonna have you do a back flip because that's what people like. Yeah. People like to see that. But what is that in the characters, you know, um, uh, ability. Is it something that they would do in this show or in that scene? Uh, so I think, I think it's important to have a purpose behind what you're asking people to do. And taking it back to purposeful practice, right? Like if this, if the rehearsal is their practice, there has to be that kind of direction to it. I don't want to use that word because it's obviously the word for director, that kind of uh, that kind of aim. Yeah. And they have to see the fruits of their labor if they can, if they could. Well, and whether that's they stepped back and watched their counterpart or the other cast perform and be like, okay, I'm doing this up on stage and I didn't realize how cool it looks down there. Or they get the response from the audience where the audience really appreciates that we had during ragtime, we had good audiences, they really appreciated the show and what we were trying to share with them. But after words, people would stay and talk to our performers for quite a long time. People they didn't know and they would, they would point out different moments of the show that meant something to them. You know, there was never just one moment where it's like, yes, that's it. Whether it was the little boy who was so brash and, and the way that, um, you know, he immediately befriended this little girl and ask questions about why, why does this happen, why does that happen? Or whether it's Tata and the little girl and their relationship or we go back to mothers transformation throughout the show. I think a lot of women connected with that. Everyone picked out something different and I, it was great that the performers, cause I think ragtime is a huge ensemble piece and that cast really, they bought into what the message should be and that it's we're unity, we're going to do this together as a cast. It doesn't matter if I'm Harlem man number five or if I'm Cole house or father, we all have the same purpose and they all, I hope that they heard all the great things that the audience had to say afterwards cause they would, they would stay there for um, you know, we like to say 30 minutes after the show we're going to close up shop and we would just let people talk because there was something they needed to talk about. Um, with the issues that were presented. So it shows like that where, and there's other shows, I mean fun shows to pirates of Penzance crazy for you, where you can get them to buy into what they're here to do and the message to the audience and the story that we're telling. Then I think you have people that are willing to go that extra mile. You're talking a lot

Speaker 3: 19:41

about feedback kind of hitting on that, that idea where, I mean we hear it all the time in theater, so that is not a novel concept. Like we're gonna sit down and get notes and so when he gets to the part where like, Oh, if you want to progress, you need feedback.

Speaker 2: 19:53

I'm like, yeah, genius. Like, yeah, I think do know that

Speaker 3: 19:57

um, our industry is very aware of that particular thing. So you kind of like, you know, checked box checked that like we get feedback from the directors and you get feedback from the audience. How does that work though, for like the production team or the theater? Like what kind of feedback, particularly like over time outside of just one show,

Speaker 2: 20:17

we do get audience feedback. Our audiences are, I think unique Davis County has a unique audience outside of salt Lake and when you go even up to Ogden. And so there is sometimes where we take a risk on a show and we hear that it was not a successful risk from our audience. And you can see it in ticket sales as well. It doesn't mean it wasn't an artistically successful shell, but maybe our season ticket based appreciate it and then you get big responses. Um, uh, whether it's people online reviews, other people talking in the community with shows that that, um, we took a chance on and it paid off. And so you have to, there's no way to measure that. We could put shows in categories and say, okay, here's our, our, the shows that we're risk and these are the ones that paid off. And it didn't, I feel like our season for next year, we tried very hard to listen. I mean we get actors feedback, we get audience feedback, we get board members feedback and we try to structure a season that will not be bland or all classics or just an anything new but a good mix that hopefully there's something in there for everyone. So as far as measuring feedback, you also have to be careful about where the comments are coming from so that someone online who, you know could anonymous anonymously create a profile or whatever skates you for something. I mean you have to, you kind of have to weed through those things. We get letters at the theater, some of them are good, some of them have some, some recommendations and we just have to, we have to weed through those and think what is best for our theater, for our audiences particularly. And that serves our mission statement. Early on there was a three E's thrown out for our mission statement, educate, elevate, and entertain. And so you have to look at that. Are we doing that? One of the three with each show or production we put on, does it cover two, does it even if it covers three even better. So it's hard. The feedback is, it's good to hear. I like feedback. Um, I think it's important. That's the only way we can improve just as he mentions in the book. But you also have to measure it and some feedback gets more weight than others. Whether it's, um, how closely related this to the purpose you set out to it. Yeah. First place. Right, right. If we, we need audience feedback, we're probably, I mean, we'll take a poll, will, you know, whatever we need to do for that. But if I'm, you know, looking to make some decisions for production teams or just productions, I'm gonna probably turn to some contributors from our artistic community where, Oh, I know so-and-so worked on that. Maybe I should talk to them about their experience with the show, how it, how it played to other audiences. Uh, whether it's in Davis County, outside of Davis County, uh, cause that's, that's important to get firsthand experience and knowledge from. Whether it's a director, music director, producer, choreographer, we have to have that to make educated decisions going forward. I feel like that's tricky for me as a director and a choreographer because I get, um, feedback that I would say falls into pretty narrow camps. There's like the review,

Speaker 3: 23:46

which because of the preponderance of community theater and the people who I think are doing the reviewing by large, they want to be constructive and positive. Absolutely. So you're not necessarily getting, um, an unfiltered opinion. It's going through a lot of politeness yeah. Before it comes to you. But it also isn't necessarily digging in on the craft of what you do. It's, it is through the lens of did I enjoy the evening? Which while I would say is definitely a purpose, I don't find it as to be a very useful sole focus purpose because it doesn't tell me how to get there. Right. So, um, so I find it really hard as a director or choreographer to get the kind of feedback that he's talking about that you need. Um, your cast is always maybe trying to ensure their ability to get cast by you again. Yeah. So they are going through the lens of politeness. Right. Um, so how, how do you, well, like between, after in theater that that group of people in between that isn't directly talking to the audience. Like where do, where do we get our good feedback, do you think?

Speaker 2: 25:01

Well, they have their, there can't be any politics in it, right? If you want good, honest feedback, they can be worried about will they choose me as a director again, will they cast me in their next show? That's why what we do at the theater, uh, is we do postmortems. We don't have the entire team there. We found that kind of fruitless because everyone's being polite and they're, you know, they don't want to upset the customer or the choreographer or whoever it may be. So we try to act as an intermediary. We can say, what was your experience working with this, with this director or this choreographer or this lighting designer? When you, when you gave them something, your vision for the show, do you feel like they grasped it and went with it? Were they open to feedback and changing things on the fly? Those are all important, important qualities, you know, to be flexible. I mean, we have to have a vision, but we all know that plan a never goes, goes and goes down, right? We implement all of planning. No planning never happens. Um, I'd love to see a place where it does happen, but that, that you gotta be flexible with it. So that's, that's our solution, to try and to evaluate at least production team members and actors. You know, he, mr director and ms director, what was your experience with this actor? And there's been times I'll be in the middle of a call back and I'll text the last director who worked with them and said, what was your experience? I know what my experience is from a producer standpoint, but the directors, those guys, I mean, you get into the nitty gritty. I wouldn't say you invade these people's spaces, but you're pushing them and you, you see their true colors come out. And so I think that feedback's important where you don't have to be, you know, um, so and so doesn't have to know where that came from. I can just say, you know, with some previous experiences, this person has always brought their a game. They're pleasant to work with. You know, pick me, pick up on dance easily. They'll do anything you ask them or you know, you have the vice versa of that. But I think it's important to, like you said, to stop being polite and get to the nitty grit and it doesn't mean you have to be mean. Right. Just a fair evaluation is, is important cause that's the only way you're going to improve or allow someone else to grow and improve.

Speaker 3: 27:20

I found that, yeah, some of my most enjoyable conversations are when it's like, yeah, don't, let's not even talk about if you liked it though. Like I don't care if you liked it or didn't like it. Can we talk about the mechanics of it or the choices of it and like,

Speaker 2: 27:35

well, and I think that's the hard part. You know, you talk about reviewers and they have two, two and a half hours to evaluate your piece of work that you've been working on for two months to a year depending on, you know, when you started working on concepts and all that, you know, we did a show recently where it was a, it's a tough piece because it, I don't think it's like a blockbuster. People don't love it, but you know, there's a place for it. Um, in our community it's, it's a fun show to tell the story of. And I was worried about the turnout of actors if they were going to, there was going to be enough, um, interest in it and we cast her show me, cast it with a lot of unknown people. And I was like, okay, here we go. I don't know where this, where we're going to end up with this and how hard the cast worked. And we were delightfully surprised that the, and I wouldn't say surprised, but we're like, Oh, we did get to where we needed to be. I didn't know what the input, what the output product would be. And the people don't see that. They don't know what we had to work with. And I'm not saying these were lesser quality performers, they were just unknown to us. And the difficulty, the technical difficulties of the show and where it ended up. And I think audiences ended up enjoying it, but it could have gone the other way so quickly. Um, had things not aligned. So that's, they also don't get to see that. It's like, do you have any idea how hard we worked or this person worked to get to that point? That's where the evaluation of a show, yeah, you still have to, we still have to please the audiences. They're the ones who are paying money to see it. But from my perspective, the show was a success, whether it did well financially, whether the audience thought it was, you know, the best show ever. I don't know. I kind of don't care. I mean I'd care to a point, but to me the show ended up successful.

Speaker 3: 29:30

You're kind of talking a little bit about like the iceberg illusion in the book where it's like all this comes. So have you ever been sitting in an audition where you're like a director is like wow that was amazing. Must be so gifted and you're, you're sitting there going like I know that person and they work their Fanny off.

Speaker 2: 29:44

Yeah. Oh all the time. All the time where you're thinking I've seen this person progressive for the last five years and the fact that they can stand there and do that today is amazing. In fact, they see it in our Academy all the time. They have fantastic stories of little wallflower kids who, you know, their moms signed them up because they weren't interested in anything else or, and these kids blossom. While it might not be as satisfying to see an adult do that as a child, we see it all the time where someone starts out in the chorus and yeah they were dragged there cause their wife was in the show. We needed an extra guy. And now they're a leading man who has, you know, the principal role. And they found a talent they didn't know they had, but they worked for it.

Speaker 3: 30:30

Do, do you have an example where that's happened on a technical level where the audience has just appreciated a moment but not fully understood what went into creating[inaudible]?

Speaker 2: 30:40

Um, when we did Scarlet Pimpernel in 2012, there's that transition from his room, his study into, uh, it will to France. They have to go from there, from the study to the boat to France, saving people from the guillotine. And we'd built, and I say, we, I didn't build it. I'm going to take zero credit for it. Uh, Scott Montgomery's idea, and Jay Clark executed this fog curtain so that when they're transitioning it goes dark. And then you see a boat come out and there's a fall curtain behind it. Shielding what the setup of the guillotine behind. And then when the fog goes away, all of a sudden, bam. You know, there's the, there's the guillotine and we're in France and I don't, I mean, he worked really hard on that fog curtain and building it, testing it over and over and over again. So yeah, that's just, you know, it was a simple moment, I'm sure we were like, Oh, that was cool. But it was like, do you have any, do you have any idea how many hours that took our money? So, yeah, that's, that's a tiny example of, of some of those moments that have paid off and, and even the car for Chitty Chitty bang bang that Scott put into that car and it flies twice. It's on stage for maybe a total of 15 minutes, but the hours that he put into that and replicating it, um, I mean, we didn't replicate exactly because of the length of how long the car is, but we shortened it down and he did. Man, he went down to every last detail. So it's gorgeous into a really pretty car. It's very, very pretty good.

Speaker 3: 32:23

Tell me a story about an adult, if you can specifically like that. You know, got to a point of accolades through practice.

Speaker 2: 32:33

Should I use the name? Sure. If you feel like, okay, that's a positive story so I can, it is a positive story. So, uh, Ryan Zog who he came and did West side story, I think he had, he's a basketball player. I know that about him. He grew up playing basketball in high school. I don't know if he had ever been in a show, maybe one before that, but you know, he's like, I'll call come try out for the show. And so he was in, he was in that show and did a good job. I mean he worked hard. I mean the dancing for that show, all those kids worked so hard for that. Uh, but he was nibbles who, you know, one of the sharks at the very beginning. So I remember they ran that over and over and over again. And then he was in Adam's family and then I think he did Mary Poppins and then he went somewhere else and did a show. So that was 2017 2018 he came and did Camelot and he had, you know, a, it's not the principal role, but he was more dread. Yeah. It's a significant yeah. And did a very nice job. And then did in ragtime he was Henry Ford. So, uh, you know the parts, you know, he, he continues to fill out these parts very well. And then Chitty Chitty bang bang at his audition and call back. It was like, is this the same kid that we saw two and a half, three years ago? And he nailed it. He did. And I hope he never listens to this cause I don't ever like to give him compliments cause it'll go to his head now it well, but he, he's done a fantastic job and to see that transformation over two and a half years because he has, he has worked at it. And one of the things I've noticed with doing these ensemble parts is he's really picked up and watched other actors and whether he has a natural ability or not, I'm not great at, I couldn't tell you the process of that, but I've seen him really pick up on what other people do well and learn from that. And I think that's huge in an actor's ability whether you need, uh, you know, the principal part where you're happy with chorus or it depends on the show sometimes for people, but there's, there's something to learn in every situation, I think, especially as an ensemble member where you're not looking up to a leader or a principal, but you can learn from them and you can take that into your next show, your next role, whatever that may be.

Speaker 3: 34:54

When Senator point is looking to progress as a theater from show to show, do you ever do what he talks about where he's like, you've got to pick something like just above your ability. And you know, he talks about like the ice skaters. Yeah. Professional ice skaters falling more times, thousands of times, and it's because they're attempting jumps that are above their B ability. Do you feel like, I guess this is a two part question, do you feel like, do you do that? Do you feel like your audience allows you to do that?

Speaker 2: 35:22

Um, so that yes, yes and yes, we pick shows. Um, and we can even go back to when center point was Rogers when we did Jacqueline Haydn in 2008 that Oh, I was pregnant. Hang no, this, yeah, that would be, um, yep. And I know we had board members who were like, what are you doing? You can't do Jacqueline Hyde at this theater. And um, we had done little shop the year before and we had done Aida and not that those are the same content, but kind of preparatory. Yeah, a little I eat as ambitious and little shop is a little more on the dark, dark side. And so we tried it there and it did really well. And we transferred that, that over to center point in 2014 I think we did that one. Tell two cities was probably the next one where it's like this is massive. This is a, this show. Cause I had seen it out at Hale, I had listened to the soundtrack and Scott Montgomery directed that one when we asked him to direct that he took him off and he's like, yeah, yeah I think we can do that. And he dug in immediately. We actually, um, I was on a business trip in New York and so he, he tagged along and met the composer. I'm not the composer, the writer of the show, Jill center Ello and just picked her brain on how we can make this thing successful. And what are things that you thought worked for the production and what are things you could cut? Cause that was our concern was long. It's a long show in it's an end. The storyline is confusing. Yes. More so than lay ms or, well man of LA Mancha. Oh yeah. That's just the, it's hard for people to look where are we? Who is he now? Is he Don Quixote? But so with that preparation, we knew that was going to be a big show. But we thought it was something our audiences would take to people around here. Lovely ms. It has a lame, his quality to it as a redeeming quality at the end. And so that was probably our next big jump. Is it something that we can make palatable? And when I say palatable, I mean that we could make it clearly understood where we in London, where we in Paris, we, we did away with, I mean probably history buffs would kill us or purists, but we got, we got away with the French accent cause we, they're so hard to do and for that length of show that now we'll just, we'll just cut that. We'll still do British. Um, hopefully that will clarify that if they're French, they're just speaking American and if they're British, they're speaking British. Um, we cut, we took Jill's recommendations on what she would cut and with her blessing it, we didn't have any problems with the, with the licensing house. And we've made a set that was, that kept the show moving. Um, it was transferring formative. And this is a case of Scott coming up with an idea and everyone getting on board, the entire production team was like, yes, we all need to, this is our goal. And it was very synergistic cause word ideas working on that production team. So that was a big fee. And then I think the next one was rad time. And I even remember when we announced we were doing ragtime, cause we do that breakfast and we invite actors and someone's like, you guys can't do ragtime. And I was, I wasn't angry because I was like, we can't do ragtime. But the um, I don't know, the competitive nature in me came out where it's like we're going to do ragtime and it's going to be good. You just wait. And I think the challenges with the rat time or just the casting of it in Davis County and up until the week we opened, we found our little coal house. The day after we opened, we had, we had four of them and we needed one more. And we found her the cutest thing ever. The day after we opened. So we worked until we knew we could do the show justice. And so I think, yeah, there's, there's, um, occasions where it's time to kind of up the ante with the productions we choose to do. There's a common thread to all of those that is, I don't know, have, I want to ask you if it, if it has to be that they're all drama and that's a good point. Um, I think, or do you feel, or do you feel it's that part of that challenge of it being, uh, raising the bar on yourself is partly because the community, maybe not the drama content, but the other aspects of the content that can come along with drama that are challenging for Davis County. Right. Um, you know, the racism thing, I mean, just hit, hit the nail right on the head with what was going on in our country and still is not to, um, I mean, it's still going on, but it was heightened for us, of course, during ragtime because that was always on our minds of what was going on in, in our world today. But with dramas, I feel like the pendulum swings a lot harder. And I think, I actually think I'll say this. I think comedies are harder to do. I, um, I think it's harder for actors to do so on a craft level, on a craft level for sure. But I, I think, I think people can go to a comedy and not hate it in general. Sure. But I think with dramas you, the risk is so much higher as in the fact that I think you can fail so much more there. They're not going to feel neutral about it. Yeah. Yeah. And the shows, those, those kind of, um, anti up shows. And I, I don't feel that way necessarily about ragtime, but I think because, um, it is such an actor show that, uh, in a lot of people don't do it, that I don't think we weren't going to necessarily fail as far as the presentation of it, but we could fail with the casting of it. Sure. Um, so that's where I think that was the big risk with till two cities. Maybe it wasn't, maybe people weren't going to hate it, but we could for them to death. That's because of the length, because of the length. So just in general, I would say dramas either. I think they're gonna love it or hate it. And there's a lot of shows out there and comedies play in this. A lot of people I know really like your in town. I don't know if our audiences, you know, just given the title that they have to get past, I don't know if they'd get the humor either. It's so you feel like, uh, to put it in, I don't know, bounce terms where he's like, it's gotta be a gap that you know how to get there. Yeah. You don't know how to maybe get the audience there. Yeah. And, and that's with their sort of comedic elements. You know, we could talk about lane ms where there's prostitution in there. There's some, there's some pretty graphic lyrics if people are listening. But our audience seems to forgive that when there's redeeming qualities throughout the show and at the end comedies, it's not as redeeming. Right. If there's crass humor or if there's a something that's maybe a little off putting or it feels like you're treating a subject flippantly, they don't like that. At least that's what we found with our audiences. The comedy, you have to walk a fine line. So I say that the pendulum swings harder with the dramas, but the comedy, you can play it in a safe zone and you can round the edges off of it and most people will like it. But I don't think they're gonna love or hate it. But that's not necessarily a gap you guys want to try to up. It's because, right? If that's not really in our mission statement, it's not in our goals. It's not in our wheelhouse and it's not what our audiences at least, um, we go back to that feedback that they have appreciated. So yeah, we kind of sidestep those ones because one of the great things about the arts is that everyone can have their own perspective and their unique experiences that, that help them relate to a show or not, whatever you want to call that. And that's the art side of it. The business side is, is that money does talk and you have, and you have to know your audience. Um, I'm not saying we're going to do every show. That's a blockbuster. I think there's a lot of great shows that we do that, that maybe are financially successful, but the people who came and saw them have really appreciated the message or whatever it may be. But we do have to run it as a business as well. And you have to, you really have to know your audiences and we're trying to get better at that. I don't think you can ever say yes, we know exactly what they want. We have a good idea of what they want, but only with data and time and history. And that's the other problem with the changing demographics. A, we have a very old season ticket base, but we've noticed a lot, a lot more younger families are coming to the theater and that we have to keep that in mind with show selection as well. Do you feel like you have, um, a show on, on the horizon either this season or next season or on the shortlist for a future season? Yeah. Where you're like, yeah, that'll be the one that ups our game. Again, not particularly. It's usually the ones that hit me upside the head. Like I don't really like ragtime. I knew that was going to be a challenge. I think the fact that we've done Scarlet Pimpernel and the audiences already love it around here. I know that's kind of a gimme. Yeah, I think Newsies not because I think audiences will love it, but the casting of that is also challenging and it's usually, those are the shows that that gives me anxiety or the casting ones where you know, we gotta have, you're gonna have some boys that dance, sing and dance. Yeah. They're going to have to sing and dance and the West side story style. Yeah. Yes, very much so. So we'll see. I mean that's probably the one, I don't think it ups our auntie. I think people thought we were going to do it eventually. So, so, so it kind of doesn't work for what he's talking about with uh, bridging that gap. It doesn't, it doesn't count if it's obvious. Yeah, I don't think so. I um, I mean maybe it could, but I think given the context of what he's talking about because it's art and subjective. Yeah. Cause I mean he doesn't, he doesn't address it being obvious at all. But that's just because like, well duh. Like yeah. Um, there, there is the way to, that's a, that's a good point. Cause I think you can see, I mean when you talk about bridging the gap, I can see where I need to be. This is where I am. If I, if I have to beat this time by, you know, point by seconds, there's, yeah, there's things I can do, do, or techniques I can put into place for us. I mean we talk about, so I've been involved with this particular organization since. If you count the first time they put a paintbrush in my hand, that would be 97, 96 maybe. So the reason I've stayed involved, um, over the past 20 plus years is because I have seen that improvement. I'm not saying it's like, Oh, we got to get to the top of the mountain and then we're there. I that's, that should never be the way you think of it. It's always, well we get better every year and that's what I've seen. We've improved our practices, whether it's on the production side of it, marketing after appreciation, whatever that may be every year. I think we get just a little bit better. So whether, and I think that does translate to productions and production quality, but as far as saying, bridging the gap, I don't know if there's like a big, I don't think you can look at certain moments and say that's where we bridge the gap. I think it's gradual for our organization. But when you're talking about like shows like where you've taken the next leap, I know a lot of people would love to see Sweeney Todd. I love Sweeney Todd. I don't think our audiences are ready for it. And I don't know if it really serves our mission statement, but that I can see that would be one where we up our ante. But I don't know if it's necessarily upping our anty or changing our delivery of their quality. You already have achieved not even the quality but what people come to expect. The type of shows we do. And I don't, and I don't mean that you're not saying content or maybe content. Well it's a diff, it's a difference of content but it's not necessarily a difference of process. Yeah, it wouldn't be a different process. But you know, you talk about a show like rent a show. I also really enjoy, that's not for our audiences. I think you have, like I said, you got to know your audience, know what you are and what you aren't. And as soon as we tried to be something we aren't, you know, you use that identification that what's gotten you there. You know, I look back at the people who have built this organization and you know, building upon the shoulders of those people that came before you and honoring them. And it doesn't mean we don't progress in different ways, but you still, but progressing doesn't mean going outside of what you do and what, you know, a change of identity. Talk to me about deep domain knowledge because I feel like I'm set of points on it's 10th season, next to season. Next year is our 10th season. Do you feel like you guys have like deep domain expertise that there's like an institutional knowledge? Yes. Yes. For the most part. It helps that a lot of people who have been around for quite some time, but we're still learning. We're still a very young organization. You know, we talked about 10 seasons. You'd go back to to RMT where I think they had four 1314 and go back to pages lane before that. It's hard because I feel like in the last 10 years Cedar's really kind of taken a different approach where we're not into the standard musical where you don't break the fourth wall, you the, the tenor stands on stage and belts out a beautiful tune and we move on. I know that sounds more Rodgers and Hammerstein ask rather than, you know, shows that have come out in the 90s where you or, or even been, um, maybe revised, but I'm thinking of shows that are reinventing the will. So there's a new show, there's Oklahoma has a little bit of that on Broadway. I haven't seen it yet. Um, but even taking my fair lady a classic that they change the ending on Broadway and we'll, we'll do something, we're still playing around with how we want ours to read, but they're kind of updating these pieces where it's saying that was a great piece of theater, but we need to update it for our audiences. And so while we're not into extreme IX or experimental theater or developmental theater, we take a show and maybe take a twist on it. You know, like you did for pirates of Penzance last year. Something that needed to be freshened up so that, um, newer audiences could enjoy it. And maybe I should say younger audiences. I think our older audience appreciated the subtitles and, you know, help give them, Oh, I get what's going on now. They're speaking my language, um, that's not in our wheelhouse, but we like to, to take a slice of that and added in. We're not going to go three 60 on, uh, on transfer forming carousel, you know. Um, but I think audiences do appreciate that to an extent. And that's something that we're trying to learn how to incorporate.

Speaker 3: 50:57

Do you feel like the actors can have a deep domain knowledge? Like obviously all the theaters around here kind of have people who frequent them and sometimes it's geographic and sometimes it's socially motivated. How actors tend to self sort and sometimes it's production team motivated, but they do, they tend to, they tend to self sort as much as they say that theaters are political actors are political too.

Speaker 2: 51:19

Yeah. But do you feel like that having recurring

Speaker 3: 51:26

themes amongst your cast in terms of people then that's a kind of deep domain knowledge? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:30

Uh, absolutely. Um, I think they're part, they, they're part of our identity, uh, the organizational culture of what we've established. And so, um, I was actually having this conversation, uh, with Jared haddock the other day where we love, we love those people who have been so loyal to us and that we see time and time again. But in order for us to continue to grow and, and hopefully envelop or bring in new talent, we, we, we have to mix it up. We continue to cast the same people enroll after roll after roll. Not only will our actors get wary of that, but our audiences will as well. But the great thing about people that have been around a while who've done maybe 10 shows there is that they really are a part of our identity. And they, you know, kind of almost the new people, they put their arm around them, you know, kind of show them the ropes and not that I think were a real complex organization, but we have our own processes and procedures that, that people have to get used to. It's like, Oh, that's different than what they do, you know, at terrorist Plaza or the hope box. And there's nothing wrong with, with their process being different than ours. It's what works for our organization. And so yeah, I think the actors are primary to that. They're at the core of who we are. What kind of things do you think

Speaker 3: 52:54

are essential knowledge? Like the things that you have that, let's break this down maybe by tasks. Okay. Protect a production team member and you can pick which one. Cause I think that's going to be pretty specific, but like what do they have to know

Speaker 2: 53:07

coming into it? Yeah. Like what are you looking for? Like it's interesting that you know, we had our first production meeting last night for a hunchback and you know there's a lot we have to talk about and get through, but kind of like laying down, this is our path and communicating is extremely important early on so that we're all on the same page so we don't get two weeks out and we're like, Oh I didn't know that was going to be in the show. I guess I should paint that. You know, things like that. But communicating and collaborating. If we have someone who's going to come in and just do whatever they want and doesn't appreciate the vision of the show, that's a problem. But probably at the core of that is there's just some things that we as an organization need from Michelle and whether that's in specific and Pacific, um, you know, like Chitty Chitty bang bang, we picked that show cause they were going to be children in it and that gave an opportunity to those child and children, actors, um, that don't get a lot of opportunities at least on our main stage. So it was important that they know that. So, um, it's important that they understand our, where we're going with the show, our concept and that we all communicate and we collaborate together to make that happen.

Speaker 3: 54:25

This was a, this is a tricky topic, but I was so interested in it when he talks about the economics of, of say in a sport where there is clearly a winner, there's a zero sum game, my game, you automatically lose. Right? And then he says, but in actual economics, if somebody is more productive than they can spend more money. And buy more and it's, and it's a win win thing. Um, I was thinking about how like, I feel like actors always view it as a zero sum game. Do you think that that's true?

Speaker 2: 54:53

Oh, I, I don't think it's true at all, but that they view it that way. Oh, I think, I think some of them do. Um, I think others are, you know, and whether we're talking about getting roles or we're talking about a production on its whole, if my counterpart does a great job on stage, that doesn't mean that I can't do a great job on stage. It means that she's, she or he is doing a great job of telling the story. Especially, I mean, you want, you want to be a startup, a part of a strong production. Right? And so you weren't talented actors to surround you on stage. They only make you look better. I, and actually I had, um, I have a friend who does theater and I noticed whenever she auditioned, she recruits men like to come. I mean, she doesn't want to recruit her competition, but she is happy to recruit men to come along and audition with her because she's like, I, it's just going to be a better show. You know, the more talent that we have on the stage, everyone wins. Right? And so yeah, I get it. I grew up playing sports, so I get the competitive nature of, you know, I have to beat this person out for a role. But I think in general when we put on strong pieces of theater, whether it's at center point or you know, Layton amphitheater, wherever, I think good art begets big at art and that engages, engages audience. If they see a good production somewhere, they're more likely to go and see another life, the attrical production or they see a bad one that might dampen their spirits about Sheila, you know, shelling out 20 bucks to see the next show. So, I mean, if you look at on on a really big hall, I think, and that's why I think there's so much theater in, in the, along the Wasatch front is because people enjoy it. And we've built that community. We built that, um, that culture of theater, uh, along, I have a friend from England and she's, and she said, I can't believe how much theater goes on in this state and just, you know, in salt Lake, I'm like, it's because, uh, we've harbored it, you know, through years and years and years. It's like 50, 60, a hundred years. I mean, that was really important to Brigham young actually when he came to the Valley, um, was to establish the a Playhouse. So yeah, I get it. I get when actors are disappointed when they don't get a role and that's hard in the moment to be like, it's okay because it's good for everyone. No, you didn't get the role. But hopefully they can see the larger benefits of it because more theaters open up or more people do productions and that's more opportunities for them. What other, um, insights maybe have you had about this from this book that we haven't talked about? I think there is something that that's to be said. Uh, you know, he talks about tiger woods, Serena Williams, their parents getting very involved and even um, you know, him as a table tennis star where I mean you, you think, Oh, this is good, this is good enough. And then you meet someone who's better than you and the, you know, whoop you, it, whether it's table tennis or whatever. And I think that's a defining moment for people where they can choose K, am I going to fight and get better or is this what I'm going to settle for? And when you look at that in theater, I think some people are fine being what they are. These are the roles I get and that's fine with me. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you face that challenge of, okay, I just went to this audition and that girl or guy was clearly better than me, what do I do to get to, I don't want to say beat them out, but to get the roll next time. And that's where you see people, okay, I need to get back into voice lessons, or, man, is there a dance class around here? What can I do to get better? And I think that's a personality thing. A lot of times, some people are just fine, you know, like, Hey, I'm great being in the chorus and I love those people. Those are wonderful people. But I think it's what's in it for them. What did they want out of it? And if it's they want to dig in and spend, you know, X amount of money and X amount of time trying to get better, Hey, more power to you. You know, I was actually watching an episode of, this is us last night and it's the one where that, um, looks back on her, her kind of career as a ballet dancer when she was growing up. And, and she's willing to dig in and she, she's willing to put in the hours and work harder and harder, but the money isn't there and she realizes, you know, you gotta pull out. And so, you know, is it, you have to also, is it worth it? You know, what are other things you could be doing with your time instead of, or with your money instead of taking vocal dance classes and, um, you know, are you away from your family? And I get that even when people come in and volunteer to be in a show, when they say, I am only willing to accept this role will for that show, that might be what's worth it to them for them to be away from their family. And that's just fine with us. But they're, I mean, that is, you just, I think it's for each person to decide, um, and what the results of it are. Yeah. I mean he's definitely talking about like, this is expert performance and some people maybe don't want to be experts. Right? Um, yeah, I have a friend and I was talking about, I was so excited the Olympics were coming up and this was, um, this was for the 2018 Olympics. She's like, that's just sounds like the worst thing ever is that those people work all their lives for one moment to get a medal. If even that, and I could see your point. I'm like, yeah, I mean there's a lot of other things they could've done, but if that's what that person desires, I mean, and those are the truly, those are the people we hear about, right? Who, who really master and craft or master their craft and obtain near perfection, you know? Um, but what was the cost of it? You can look at theater in Utah. You can look at theater in New York or the people in New York naturally more talented. No, I don't think so. Um, I think they're the ones who were willing to go to the expert level to take, and I can say this cause I have a brother out there. He's doing it right now, but they're willing to, to go. That's what they want in life. More power to you. I, but I don't think there's just a natural, you know, dispersion in New York of of more talented people. They're the, they're the people who are willing to put in their time. And we have a lot of really talented people out here who they want to have a career, they want to have a family, but they also enjoy theater. And that's where I think at least center point fits that niche is that person who expert people we love. We love to have them, but the people who look at it as a hobby and they're in, they're really good at it too.

Speaker 3: 1:01:54

I like that. It reminds me of when he talks about the violin school, right? There's, there's the people who are going to be the soloists for the orchestras, world-class orchestras. The people who are gonna play in the world class, they're not gonna be a syllabus. And there's the people who are gonna like teach other people. Yes. When he breaks it down in that particular school. And there's the people who practice regularly in practice. Well, and there's the people who practiced so much more in practice, so much harder. And then there's the people who

Speaker 2: 1:02:16

dedicate their lives to it and have to, I mean, if we're talking about, you know, percentages or increments, is that a thousand more hours a year? Does that make you, whether someone practices a hundred, does that make you 10 times better than that person? I don't know. You don't totally agree with him on that? I could see. I think, yeah, I feel like he would say, yeah, I think she would. Yeah, I think he would, but I'm, I think that that those extra hours definitely are going to lead you away from the pack. You know, you're going to go above the, um, you know, the average, the status quo, whatever. But is it w you know, the, the cost of doing, is that worth it to you? And I don't think so. I mean, I'm not saying for that, I'm just saying personal choice, my personal choices that that's not for me depending on what we're talking about, but, but, but just the ex, you know, you look at the amount of time versus the amount of time you get or them the percentage you get better and then you can't measure stuff like that. Right. Can we really say that tiger woods is 10 times better than, you know, this other golfer that who's on the tour but we never hear about never places. I don't even, even with his stats, right? Yeah. I don't think that you have that kind of mathematic certainty. It's always fascinating to hear other people's perspectives and what they get out of something. I mean just like we were talking about theater, someone can see the same piece and be like, Oh, mother's story that you're saying to me. And Oh the racism thing. But with books, any piece of art, right. We all interpret it differently. So it's always fascinating to hear your thoughts. Thank you. Seriously, I love, cause it's not like talking to the reviewer with you. Like we get nitty gritty. Yeah we craft and mechanics. Yeah we can get into it and we don't agree all the time, but I know that we have to, but I think we understand each other's points and you make points, you make points, then you have like thought process behind it and I'm like I can see that. I can see that. That gives me something to chew on in my brain for a bit. Let me mold that around. That's why I liked you sent the questions yesterday cause I was like, Oh yeah, I didn't think about it that way. This is where her brain went. Yeah, totally. So anything else that yeah, that you thought about it that you want to chat about? I should've made notes like you, but I was listening on my little tabbies. Yeah, I liked that. Yeah. Whenever I have the rare opportunity to get my hands on a book, I like to underline things too. Cause then I don't ever go back and look at them. But for some reason it's like when I write something down in conference talks would be what I point to. But I'm like, yeah, you, they could say that, but if I write it down for some reason, just me writing it, I remember it like it's how I processed it. Just the visual words of it. Yeah. I haven't read a book in our library. If it's not like[inaudible] pen pages kept captain underlying things scrawled in the, if it's clean, it hasn't been read by me. My mother is the same way. It's a well loved book. Kristen, thank you so much for chatting with me then. Welcome my pleasure.

Speaker 1: 1:05:33

Our next between the lines episode will be on the book dojo to page, right fight scenes and will be a discussion with the book's author Christine Haggerty. Look for that special between the lines episode coming in July. Thank you to my guests, Krista Davies. Theme music by Gordon Vette. S in the telling is hosted and produced by me. Liz Christiansen. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 4: 1:05:56

[inaudible] kinda the same old song and it's taken me. So a notice how the music changes this, like the pictures on when the pages MIS, you stop and listen. Music counts. You[inaudible].